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Welsh Language

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Gary

| 3,774 posts

20^th Jan 2005 at 1:48 am

I is not evil.

I've had this debate with a number of RL friends. Some from North Wales, some from South, some from the Midlands. Just wandering what the views are here?

Personally, I see it as a dead language that people still use if that makes sense. Most people who speak Welsh speak English too. When I last caught the train to Swansea to see a friend I sat behind two women who were speaking in English. As soon as I took my seat, they switched to Welsh. I don't have an accent so they thought I couldn't understand them - even though they were talking about their cats and what their Sara did on holiday. It just comes across to me as rude.

Anyway, my main grudge is that in Wales it's compulsory now at GCSE. I was in the year group that just missed it. I don't hate the language, it's quite nice - I just figure that students should be given the choice of Welsh or, say, German or French. Not many people will actually use it.

Thoughts?

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Animal

| 32,547 posts

20^th Jan 2005 at 1:55 am

I can understand why it is taught (SP?), since it is part of the welsh heritage, as for it being compulsery, i do and dont agree with it. If it was optional, who is to say enough people would take it up to make it viable to teach? The last thing you want is your heritage (and possibly national pride?) dying on you due to a lack of interest in an archaic language that has been superceded by one that at the best of times makes little sense. (why on earth do we have so many words to mean one thing? Or so many similar words, there, their and they're for example to mean different things?)

But yeah, i can see why it is compulsery, though i dont fully agree with it.

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Caged Liberty

| 11,209 posts

20^th Jan 2005 at 2:13 am

Torrential high seas dragged me to my knees

Yeah, just like the Gaelic debate, I'm not sure what my thoughts are tbh. I don't want to see it die, neither do I want to see it forced upon children in schools as a compulsory subject. So I don't know.

Hobbes

| 8,575 posts

20^th Jan 2005 at 2:17 am

the hoopiest of all the froods

I agree with Darren there, apparently I could speak Welsh as a smal child, but I've forgotten it all now, and must relearn it.

I strongly believe that noone should move into a Welsh speaking area of Wales without fully intending to speak the language. You wouldn't do that in Germany or Spain or wherever, I don't think you should do it in Wales.

I know a lot of Welsh people and they all use the language, it is their first language as such, but I think that does depend on whereabouts in Wales you are from, and your age.

Welsh is a beautiful language, it should definitely not be allowed to die. It's the oldest indigineous language in Europe or something like that.

My family is rather millitant about "Welsh rights" as such.

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"I'M SIGNIFICANT!!!"
screamed the dust speck

Gary

| 3,774 posts

20^th Jan 2005 at 9:06 pm

I is not evil.

Quote: Caged_Liberty_

Yeah, just like the Gaelic debate, I'm not sure what my thoughts are tbh. I don't want to see it die, neither do I want to see it forced upon children in schools as a compulsory subject. So I don't know.

I've always wondered about Gaelic - is it taught in schools in Scotland? I've heard from some Scottish relatives that I've met only once when I was younger that it's still spoken, especially in the more rural areas.

Mark Brogan

| 7,648 posts

20^th Jan 2005 at 9:20 pm

I think, that to preserve the welsh language from dying out, that it should be compulsory, a bain like maths or english. But, anyway, so, the welsh dudes learn welsh, people know it, never use it because the welsh road signs have english translations and everything, but even though it's practically useless, it's a language and probably important culturally and stuff.
I am not welsh. I am english. But the amount of times the english have gone and swallowed up and submerged stuff, I think they should at least be able to keep their own language.
So, in conclusion, yes. Go learn welsh.

Animal

| 32,547 posts

20^th Jan 2005 at 9:21 pm

Quote: Hobbes_

I strongly believe that noone should move into a Welsh speaking area of Wales without fully intending to speak the language. You wouldn't do that in Germany or Spain or wherever, I don't think you should do it in Wales.

I really wish more people had this attitude. Its a problem i have to face in work on a daily basis. People moving over here from another country for whatever reason and not bothering to learn the native tongue before hand, or worse yet, learning only a smattering of the language so to have a basic conversation with them takes a good 30 minutes of your time. Its only polite to learn the tongue of a country you move to, hell ideally i think you should know at least a small amount of it (just basic words and phrases) before going on a holiday somewhere (if its possible at all - since some languages are harder to find learning aids for than others) I know when i eventually go to Japan i want to be fairly easy with the language, despite the fact ill never need it, due to them all insisting on speaking english to you so you can help them learn it.

Strangely the word Free seems to be ubiquitous in meaning where-ever you are in the world.. or so it would seem from what i encounter at work anyway. (I must stop going on about work)

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The world isn't run by weapons anymore, or energy, or money. It's run by little rabbits and zeroes, little bits of data. It's all just electrons.

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Caged Liberty

| 11,209 posts

20^th Jan 2005 at 9:33 pm

Torrential high seas dragged me to my knees

Quote: Osiris_

I've always wondered about Gaelic - is it taught in schools in Scotland? I've heard from some Scottish relatives that I've met only once when I was younger that it's still spoken, especially in the more rural areas.

If it is still taught in schools here, it's the very tiny minority. I live in central Scotland, and you'd be hard pressed to find a school which actually teaches it as a proper language. Someone I know did go to a Gaelic speaking nursery school, and can't remember a word of it now. Basically to find a school speaking it you'd have to look in the Highlands and islands, where it is still spoken by some people.

Hobbes

| 8,575 posts

20^th Jan 2005 at 9:51 pm

the hoopiest of all the froods

Quote: Radical_Edward_

I really wish more people had this attitude. Its a problem i have to face in work on a daily basis. People moving over here from another country for whatever reason and not bothering to learn the native tongue before hand, or worse yet, learning only a smattering of the language so to have a basic conversation with them takes a good 30 minutes of your time. Its only polite to learn the tongue of a country you move to, hell ideally i think you should know at least a small amount of it (just basic words and phrases) before going on a holiday somewhere (if its possible at all - since some languages are harder to find learning aids for than others) I know when i eventually go to Japan i want to be fairly easy with the language, despite the fact ill never need it, due to them all insisting on speaking english to you so you can help them learn it.

Strangely the word Free seems to be ubiquitous in meaning where-ever you are in the world.. or so it would seem from what i encounter at work anyway. (I must stop going on about work)

I totally agree with this. It's just a common courtesy.

"I'M SIGNIFICANT!!!"
screamed the dust speck

Hobbes

| 8,575 posts

20^th Jan 2005 at 9:56 pm

the hoopiest of all the froods

Quote: Caged_Liberty_

If it is still taught in schools here, it's the very tiny minority. I live in central Scotland, and you'd be hard pressed to find a school which actually teaches it as a proper language. Someone I know did go to a Gaelic speaking nursery school, and can't remember a word of it now. Basically to find a school speaking it you'd have to look in the Highlands and islands, where it is still spoken by some people.

Strangely enough when I was living in Wales this came up in conversation and I said it was a dead language I'd never heard spoken in person by anyone and I got a verbal bitchslap from everyone there. I think it does depend a lot on where in Scotland you're from, but from my experience I'd say Welsh is a lot more widely used in Wales than Gaelic is in Scotland

The one thing that surprised me was the number of people in Wales I met, who'd moved there or were on holiday from abroad who spoke other languages and Welsh, but no English. There are these Gaelic minority languages all of over the place. I had fun trying to work out what this guy who spoke French, Bretton and Welsh but no English was saying with my English, German and a tiny bit of French. That was surreal. There are 8 indigineous languages in France alone which have all but been wiped out. I think it's sad really, but it's so difficult sometimes to save them.

"I'M SIGNIFICANT!!!"
screamed the dust speck

Caged Liberty

| 11,209 posts

20^th Jan 2005 at 10:00 pm

Torrential high seas dragged me to my knees

Quote: Hobbes_

I totally agree with this. It's just a common courtesy.

I completely agree too. I think to voluntarily move to a country and refuse to integrate to the extent of not speaking the language at all is foolish. It's basically the same as the stereotypical 'humourous' image of the English speaking tourist shouting English at someone in a foreign speaking country.

The Slush Puppy

| 119 posts

24^th Jan 2005 at 1:12 pm

.....because fact into doubt won't go

My family is from wales, so i used to have to call my grandad the wlsh for grandad, it mixed me up i only recently discovered that it was welsh. I thought he was just a bit mad. Its a great language and i would love to learn to speak it, sadly i only have enough brain power to remember one language not two. who likes chicken???

No Sprinkles!! For every sprinkle i find, i shall kill you!!

Silvan

| 3,776 posts

24^th Jan 2005 at 2:20 pm

Aurals Velupide!

I think it would be a pity for any language to die out.

What can I say? I did it all for the Wookies.

Hobbes

| 8,575 posts

24^th Jan 2005 at 2:43 pm

the hoopiest of all the froods

Quote: Deloreans_Friend_

My family is from wales, so i used to have to call my grandad the wlsh for grandad, it mixed me up i only recently discovered that it was welsh. I thought he was just a bit mad. Its a great language and i would love to learn to speak it, sadly i only have enough brain power to remember one language not two. who likes chicken???

Taid?

Quote: Silvan_

I think it would be a pity for any language to die out.

Exactly!

"I'M SIGNIFICANT!!!"
screamed the dust speck

The Slush Puppy

| 119 posts

24^th Jan 2005 at 3:04 pm

.....because fact into doubt won't go

yes taid!!!!!!!! he will always be taid. Thats brilliant, i know a word of welsh, im on the way

No Sprinkles!! For every sprinkle i find, i shall kill you!!

Hobbes

| 8,575 posts

24^th Jan 2005 at 3:09 pm

the hoopiest of all the froods

Nain is gran. Now you have two.

"I'M SIGNIFICANT!!!"
screamed the dust speck

The Underwhelmed One

| 7,111 posts

16^th Feb 2005 at 1:02 am

I think the GCSE in welsh is a joke though. I mean, have you SEEN the syllabus?

All you really do is regurgitate a letter for the writing, after haveing spent two years writting letters. YOU CHOOSE THE SUBJECT YOU WRITE ON FOR HEAVENS SAKE!!

They just want to get you through it.

I myself am made entirely of flaws, stitched together with good intentions.

The Slush Puppy

| 119 posts

16^th Feb 2005 at 10:43 am

.....because fact into doubt won't go

I know two words of welsh, im practically the leader now!!

No Sprinkles!! For every sprinkle i find, i shall kill you!!

satansrubberduck

| 7,520 posts

16^th Feb 2005 at 4:11 pm

Quote: Completely_Underwhelmed_

I think the GCSE in welsh is a joke though. I mean, have you SEEN the syllabus?

All you really do is regurgitate a letter for the writing, after haveing spent two years writting letters. YOU CHOOSE THE SUBJECT YOU WRITE ON FOR HEAVENS SAKE!!

They just want to get you through it.

Sounds like Standard Grade French/German Writing. You get the exam papers out early ffs.

If you were referring to me Laura, with "Someone I know did go to a Gaelic speaking nursery school, and can't remember a word of it now", then that's slightly wrong. I can remember one word, and that would be my name: Shorus. For a while I could also remember how to say Good Morning, but even that is gone.

It's a shame. I was on one of the Gaelic TV programmes once. We were sitting on the road train at Strathclyde Park singing something.

Caged Liberty

| 11,209 posts

16^th Feb 2005 at 11:17 pm

Torrential high seas dragged me to my knees

It wasn't you, I didn't know you went to one. Or if I did I forgot. Yes, I did forget because you've told me that before.

Elusive Moose

| 8,546 posts

20^th Feb 2005 at 11:39 pm

Get your Antlers on

[quote=Hobbes_ link=1106185707/0#3 date=1106187439]

I strongly believe that noone should move into a Welsh speaking area of

"You can't roast infants. You just don't get away with it."- a life lesson for us all.

Wife of Phil the Lawful Hippo. Imagine the children!

The Disneyafied Adventures of Me

Phil

| 7,619 posts

21^st Feb 2005 at 12:25 am

Hippo Moderator of Heck!

I'm undecided on this whole issuse, TBH.

Personally, I don't like language - I don't mean I don't like learning them, I mean I don't like the fact differing languages exist. They're a barrier, a relic from a distant age and, in an ideal world, we'd speak one langauge. (Don't confuse my dislike of differing language with a dislike of differing culture, differing culture is fantastic). I find arguments like "it's one of europes oldest languages" or "it's part of our heritage" odd. You don't see anybody advocating reviving Sanskrit, despite it being older than any language spoken today and a huge part of the hertage of, well, the world.

One part of me feels very strongly that holding on to minority lanuages, like Welsh, is just maintaining barriers. We should let it die, and we shouldn't feel sorry about giving it a good kick to get there.

The other part of me feels equally strongly, almost entirely the opposite. We should maintain language, if people choose to speak it, and making an efoort not to inhibit that is the only right way to go about things.

Re: what Amy said about Catelan, I see nothing wrong with learning Castillian Spanish (seeing as you'd have a hard tme learning anything else well) and moving a to a region of Spain, such as Cateluna so long as you have a willingness to adapt. If they don't then they're an idiot and would have problems wherever they moved, from Santander to Madrid to Granad

She's the kind of girl that leaves out condoms on the bedroom dresser
Just to make you jealous of the men she f*cked before you met her.

learrggh

| 5,670 posts

25^th Feb 2005 at 11:45 pm

I love languages - I don't want to see any forgotten. Note, forgotten - if a language stops being used then that is fine, if sad, and in the course of time many more will be dropped, but I do think it's important not to forget.

For example, I love Old English. It's a shame that some of it has been lost or is incomplete, but I don't ever want to see it completely forgotten about. It's such a beautiful and archaic language, and a big part of influencing, if that's the right word, other languages that came after, and it's important to retain the means to understand old languages for historical reasons aswell - to understand things written at the time.

Personally, I'd love to travel and live all over the world. I want to eventually move to Venice - but I'd never dream of going until I learn Italian. You don't magically pick up the language by living there, and you can't just assume everybody will know English. Plus, Venice is drowning in tourists as it is, and I'd want to be actually useful to the community - and by not learning Italian I would be showing no respect and rendering myself useless.

((

| 16,690 posts

13^th Mar 2005 at 2:12 pm

Well, the Welsh have invaded my town for the game, at it sure doesn't sound dead...

Elusive Moose

| 8,546 posts

13^th Mar 2005 at 3:05 pm

Get your Antlers on

Quote: Phil_

that people should want to go to Spain/Germany/Mongolia without even attempting to learn ONCE THEY GET THERE! How can you expect 90% of an area to adapt to you indvidually..

Although I agree that you will learn more language from being in the country and living there than from a textbook, there is no way that anyone can go to a country not speaking a word of the language and expect to be able to learn it. As I think Leah said, you need the basics before you go. How would you be able to distinguish one word from the next, the meanings or anything without having the basics? Fair enough if you go and have lessons in the language once you've moved, but surely it would be so much more sensible to get a knowledge beforehand so you don't struggle in your first few months? It's naive to think that you can learn a language from simply living there- where are you meant to start?

"You can't roast infants. You just don't get away with it."- a life lesson for us all.

Wife of Phil the Lawful Hippo. Imagine the children!

The Disneyafied Adventures of Me

satansrubberduck

| 7,520 posts

13^th Mar 2005 at 7:43 pm

Bring back Esperanto!

Phil

| 7,619 posts

13^th Mar 2005 at 11:15 pm

Hippo Moderator of Heck!

Quote: Elusive_Moose_

Although I agree that you will learn more language from being in the country and living there than from a textbook, there is no way that anyone can go to a country not speaking a word of the language and expect to be able to learn it. As I think Leah said, you need the basics before you go. How would you be able to distinguish one word from the next, the meanings or anything without having the basics? Fair enough if you go and have lessons in the language once you've moved, but surely it would be so much more sensible to get a knowledge beforehand so you don't struggle in your first few months? It's naive to think that you can learn a language from simply living there- where are you meant to start?

I disagree, everybody does exactly that at least once in their lives. We're not born with any tendency towards a language, yet most learn one. Admittidly, "picking up" a language is harder when you get older, but not impossible by any means. Languages can, and are, learnt quite effectivly without active teaching. If enough people say "hola" upon first meeting you, you're going to realise it means hello.

I'm not suggesting that you can just lay on your imported couch and drink sangria and expect to be speaking fluent Spanish in a week, and I'm not suggesting it's desirable to go with no grap of the language. To claim you NEED to be actively taught a language by a teacher (be it human, book or machine) is just plain false. Advantageous, yes, sensible, yes, nessercery, no.

I learnt Spanish for years, I could describe my hotel room and tell you directions to the imaginary tourist office in my sleep. Would I have had an advantage if I were actually in that situation - I truly don't belive so.

I'm not saying that people who go to other countries and don't speak the language are the great pioneers, I'm not even claiming they doing thing the write way, but to talk about them as if they're going to cause the extinction of the worlds major languages if just a bit over-vicious.

She's the kind of girl that leaves out condoms on the bedroom dresser
Just to make you jealous of the men she f*cked before you met her.

Phil

| 7,619 posts

13^th Mar 2005 at 11:25 pm

Hippo Moderator of Heck!

Also, just as an aside, re: the dialect thing, it's not only the British that do this. I don't know what the cultural mix is like in Oxford, I wouldn't even begin to speculate, but I do know that Leeds has a large South East Asian (presumably Chinese) population, further more Bradford has huge swathes of the city which are predominantly Pakistani and Indian, and also a large Polish population. Whilst they speak "Queen's" English well enough to get by, local dialect confuses them utterly. It's not a large problem, as most people in Leeds (and ever other place) at least 'get' Queens English, equally, I'd stake a large sum that most Catalan people (and others) at least 'get' Castillian spanish, without any sort of difficulty.

She's the kind of girl that leaves out condoms on the bedroom dresser
Just to make you jealous of the men she f*cked before you met her.

satansrubberduck

| 7,520 posts

13^th Mar 2005 at 11:25 pm

I tried to learn French for going to France. (Well, I had to learn French in school anyways.) But every time I intended to use it, the cashiers (or whoever) swapped instantly to English. It was like I had a big sign round my neck or something. I didn't.

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